SDT-Reborn

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Hello there.

Let me tell you a little story.
4 years ago I, with Snake-Studios, and a team of what I still consider to be some of the greatest minds and artists of the SDT modding community here on undertow worked on a project called SDT-Rebuild.
It was aimed to be a 2D remake of the classic game in Unity, to allow for better performance, better resolution and a general continuation of the game. We worked behind the scenes on brainstorming and getting the work on track.
Unfortunately the project collapsed after a few months. Now, as the manager of it I still give myself all the responsibility of that failure because those who participated had so many incredible ideas, it was just my lack of experience that prevented it from coming to fruition.

Half a year later one of our members tried to continue our efforts but it seems it never reached a stage where a public demo could be released and he has been inactive for over 2 years now. But during our conversations in that time I made a promise:
That I will continue to work on improving my skills and abilities as best as I can and, should all attempts in a Remake fail until I think I am capable to tackle such a project, will one day return to work on reviving this wonderful game.

This day is now.

I have been working on this for the past few weeks and this time I am doing as much myself as I can, and what I am creating is a natural evolution of what SDT always was, by bringing its style over to the 3D-space.
This allows legacy support for the most part (yes, it works quite well with 2D hair!) as well as giving an opportunity to make this game do a lot more than before, in a way that I think would be natural if Konashion would still be working on it to this day.

Therefore I am now announcing SDT-Reborn!
I just released a pre-alpha for the game here:
https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/759749

It shows a very simple version with movement and constraints as well as an opening mouth on a fixed character, but it showcases the style and capabilities pretty well and how well it fits to the theme of SDT already (although the lighting will get some fixing)

Here is the current roadmap in terms of which features are planned right now and their order of priority

-Add the full sound-range
-Add mouse-smoothing
-Improve lighting and rendering
-Add more expressions triggered by events
-Add 2D hair customization (legacy compatible for .png!)
-Add extensive body customization (already partly done, not released yet)
-Add tear/spit/cum
-Improve the animations to involve things that are only possible in 3D (for example head-tilting for licking)
-Add clothing customization
-Add 3D hair customization!
-Add multiple positions
-Add a 3D camera
-Modding-support (including legacy-support)!

And last, I debated wether I should share my Patreon link here or not for a long while, but I remember a significant roadblock that contributed to the collapse of that project 4 years ago which was significant lack of funding.
Now don't worry, this time I made sure even with no funding there should be nothing in the way of finishing this project, but it would allow me to hire a competent 3D artist to work on significantly better and more customization options, including the body as well as allow for a lot more cool stuff and of course in general being able to accomplish things faster, so here it is: Snake-Studios is creating Adult Games | Patreon
Speaking of, if you are or know a good 3D modeler (proficient with rigging and weighting) please feel free to hit me up!

Attached is an example of how well the legacy hair support works on these models, it looks very close to its 2D flash counterpart:

hairshowcase.png
 
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SyntaxTerror

Content Creator
Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Hello

If you say that you'll use SDT content AND you also raise money with Patreon, it seems to me that you're making money with the work of dozens of SDT modders that provided content for free for years for "regular" SDT.

I would personally feel robbed of my work if it was used by someone I never heard of to devellop his own game, without even asking for my consent to use my work (ie. hundreds of hours of work).

Just to say, our archive and ressource manager are not Wikipedia Commons, it is stated nowhere that you can pick what you want and make money out of it without even crediting the authors. You are also using "SDT" in your game name on purpose, without the consent of its creator, Konashion. The fact that he is nowhere to be found doesn't mean that he lost his rights on his work.
 

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
You can rest easy, no content of undertow will be used in the game except with explicit permission. What SDT-Reborn will offer is simply a compatibility layer for them so users can apply SDT mods to SDT reborn. The above example is merely that, an example to showcase, it will not be packaged with the game at any point (you can also check the packaged game on newgrounds and check that it was not included). I apologize if that post gave the impression that I would use your work to include in a game that generates a revenue-stream. I will not.

The idea is to let users use exactly the same files created by you and apply them to this game. They will still be provided by you and you only. This applies to all files, configuration, scripts and eventually even swf should I manage to do that.
This solution should also not harm the undertow community for the old 2D game in any way, probably it would strengthen it through stuff being intercompatible and stuff from Reborn being applicable to the 2D game, which in my opinion is the beauty of it. Additionally I actually see no reason to include any mods in what should be a platform for modding. Maybe templates to give an overview, but those few I can do myself, and I will focus on 3D anyway.

For Konashion, yes that is true, I am purposefully associating my work with SDT to "revive it" and portray my game as a continuation of it (SDT 2 had the same issue btw, but in that case I think it was less justified because it had such different graphics and none of the old mods would have been applicable). Konashion is unfortunately deceased for 7 seven years now according to my knowledge and flash is dead as well. Konashion is the only one with the rights on anything he created and so the only one who has the rights to decide what happens with it, therefore should he (or any heir of his) really show up at any point I would be ready to give the entire proceeds of this project to him, hell I would even be ready to pay damages if he demanded it. That is just the risk I am ready to take. I am sick of SDT being essentially a dead end in terms of development.
 
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SyntaxTerror

Content Creator
Joined
Jul 24, 2014
OK then.

Konashion is unfortunately deceased for 7 seven years now according to my knowledge
Where do you get this info from?
If your source is Newgrounds forum, it's very likely to ba a hoax.
I am sick of SDT being essentially a dead end in terms of development.
Well, the fact that Adobe will stop develloping Flash at the end of 2020 and that web browsers are starting to restricting it has little to do with SDT: the Vanilla game is an EXE, and the Loader version runs on a Flash standalone player, these will work theoricaly forever.
The advantage of SDT is it is somewhat easy to make new mods, and there is a huge number of them available, some being made until now and in the future.

I'm not trying to depreciate your work, but these are facts.
SDT is kindof a cult game, and it is very unlikely to see the same story happen for a successor in my opinion.
Not to mention that Konashion spent three years to get to 1.21.1b version, and there are more than seven years of modding behind it that really improved the game.
 
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DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Well, the fact that Adobe will stop develloping Flash at the end of 2020 and that web browsers are starting to restricting it has little to do with SDT: the Vanilla game is an EXE, and the Loader version runs on a Flash standalone player, these will work theoricaly forever.
The advantage of SDT is it is somewhat easy to make new mods, and there is a huge number of them available, some being made until now and in the future.
Well, that is not entirely true. It means that future swf mods could potentially exploit vulnerabilities found in flash after its deprecation, similiar reason that Windows 7 is not recommended for use anymore, the core is fine, but components added to it could make it malicious, making installing mods more risky in the future. Not by much in my opinion, but it is still a valid concern. That does not affect the core-game of course, the loader is quite old by now too so it's the same for that. Additionally since I am trying to design this with a philosophy of legacy-compatibility I don't think it really matters anyway since I am trying to make as many mods for SDT work for Reborn as possible so they could just be popped in without any intervention.
 

TheHackerKnownAsSnow

Content Creator
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Let me tell you a little story.
4 years ago I, with Snake-Studios
Did you work with doomnight? the guy that was teaching him self unity to make a new SDT? He used to have some kinda blog while he was making it, his thread got pruned in the last migration.

It was aimed to be a 2D remake of the classic game in Unity, to allow for better performance, better resolution and a general continuation of the game.
You clearly don't know much about Flash or modern tech to think that a whole remake is the best solution.

Well, the fact that Adobe will stop develloping Flash at the end of 2020 and that web browsers are starting to restricting it has little to do with SDT: the Vanilla game is an EXE, and the Loader version runs on a Flash standalone player, these will work theoricaly forever.
The advantage of SDT is it is somewhat easy to make new mods, and there is a huge number of them available, some being made until now and in the future.
Especially given these facts flash will have a lot of legacy documentation and things like google's pepper plugin show that performance issues are not real concern especially since hardware is only getting better. SDT in the future will keep performing better not worse
And last, I debated wether I should share my Patreon link here or not for a long while, but I remember a significant roadblock that contributed to the collapse of that project 4 years ago which was significant lack of funding.
This is the biggest red flag. There are a million things wrong with this that its not even worth my time. You don't understand what made SDT what is was way back in the day. Your businesses monetization strategy is embarrassing and you admit you will quit when it enviably fails. Please leave.
 

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
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DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Also, no. The project I worked in included stuntcock, ModGuy, Pim_Gd, Huitznahua, WeeWillie, Slingerbult etc

I want to take time here to make clear none of them are currently associated with this project I am working on right now. All of them were very pleasant to work with and really talented people but it was a different project. It seems a little bit of a shitshow just started with you and I do not want to drag any of them in.
 

TheHackerKnownAsSnow

Content Creator
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Are you literally trying to bribe me?
No dude that was a legitimate paid position job offer from me, which is still on the table despite you thinking you are smart and are outing me here. I think you are really talented and driven and that's what I'm gonna need if I want to get to the end of this.

The drama I was referring to were two problems I have had in the past. People being rude to new comers who are not tech savvy and people not liking my idea of making the game easy to play. A rebirth to the game is dearly needed and I've tried talking about it but this community is very unforgiving as you have clearly demonstrated here. I was not planning to ever discuss my project on this forum and instead try to recruit through DMs.

But thank you very much for publicly embarrassing me and showing everyone one my WIP website I hope you all fucking like it.

The project I worked in included stuntcock, ModGuy, Pim_Gd, Huitznahua, WeeWillie, Slingerbult
Do you know where any of those guys are? Most of those guys you listed have been MIA for at least 6mo to a year. Stuntcock in particular is dearly missed.
 
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DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Yeah, I don't know where stuntcock is either, I have not talked to any of them since the end of 2016.

And well, you definitely came off as doing a threat/bribe double here. Shittalking my project aggressively with strawmans while giving me a paid job so I stop working on it. So the going public with it immediately is the only correct reaction in such a case.

Also, for your points, they are pretty much irrelevant because the only way forward is to go 3D and yes, flash will have unnecessary vulnerabilities which will be able to be injected into the game through mods. I never argued against performance, that was one of your strawmans, I am simply arguing for features.

The last paragraph was another one, a simple assumption. Last time I had to manage many people, this time it is only me and this time I am actually involved in the programming, something I was not able to in the one before unfortunately (as in the last we decided that I would have a manager-only role to be able to oversee the multiple areas of work better). And it was never public either.

I will take your job, yes. I will do my best to help you in your project too to make it happen. But I will not quit this project. I am willing to believe it was an error to assume you had ill intentions and I apologize then, but in that case, please prove it was not just a bribe and actually take me with that condition.
 
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TheHackerKnownAsSnow

Content Creator
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Come on, prove it was not just a bribe and actually take me with that condition.
I'm sorry I don't think you get it because you did not give me the chance to explain. My project will 100% always be free. I will never except donations. I'm not here trying to make money like you there is no bribe here I am not competing with your project.

And well, you definitely came off as doing a threat/bribe double here. Shittalking my project aggressively with strawmans while giving me a paid job so I stop working on it. So the going public with it immediatly is the only correct reaction in such a case.
Sorry but that was a miscalculation by you. I was trying to be vague, bold and enticing so you'd ask me questions while showing you a link to my stupid WIP website I worked really hard on hoping to impress you because I really wanted you to work for me.

Its really unfortunate that we're having this miscommunication.

idk how you want to try to post a Patron link on this community in particular and not expect something like this. This community is 10 years old we don't need jokers anymore asking for money for what has been a passion project for dozens of people, that's why I did not publicize my project yet until I had something undeniable to show. But thank so much for all this press.

Hey guys I'm Snow! If my life isn't a fucking complete disaster for one fucking moment there will be a thread incoming.

DaoSoul DaoSoul I don't really have any infrastructure to talk to you off site yet I was going to work on it this week if things went well. I have other plans for today so if this is settled talk to me in DMs from here on out.
 

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
This proved it for me basically. I hope I will not see you in this thread again, thanks. It is really obvious to detect someone with vested interests trying to tear down others projects for their own.
You responded to none of my arguments and instead continued with strawman attacks. And since you offered me a paid position for this project you have to be lying to say it would be free. Nobody promises to hire someone they barely know, promising them a position for money when they just want to give the product away for completely free (under the name of a company in your website footer no less, this could simply be a dev-state but it is still suspicious). You will therefore either be monetizing it, financing with ads or a through more malicious scheme in your code.

And then when they say they won't stop their own project suddenly going back on your offer. I was fully ready to work with you and even apologize for maybe assuming wrong.

Just a tip, after this today I would seriously recommend going open-source with your project so you can build up trust again, to prove you are not doing any of those schemes. It's not a full game with a lot of assets, it's just a wrapper-plus-repack (for which contents you hopefully all seek permission) after all. It's free like you say, so it should only benefit you anyway with more community support.
 

TheHackerKnownAsSnow

Content Creator
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
You responded to none of my arguments and instead continued with strawman attacks.
I just don't do debates online where I lay out my syllogisms for strangers. Sorry I just never enjoyed it. Its rarely worth it.

And since you offered me a paid position for this project you have to be lying to say it would be free. Nobody promises to hire someone they barely know, promising them a position for money when they just want to give the product away for completely free.
No body except me. I'm a pretty decent person actually. This is all rather unfortunate, I would have explained all my ideas and feelings for this project in due time. Everything will makes sense soon.

Just a tip, after this today I would seriously recommend going open-source with your project so you can build up trust again, to prove you are not doing any of those schemes. It's not a full game with a lot of assets, it's just a wrapper-plus-repack (for which contents you hopefully all seek permission) after all. It's free like you say, so it should only benefit you anyway with more community support.
Everything I make will me licensed MIT

I no joke could use your help.

The weather is pretty nice today. :D
 

TheHackerKnownAsSnow

Content Creator
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
(under the name of a company in your website footer no less, this could simply be a dev-state but it is still suspicious)
The website is a WIP, that text is auto generated in pulls its data from the web browser title I think. thanks for spotting that I'll try to fix that this week.
 

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Good then I hope the issue is settled for both parties now. I am not really a friend of that attacking someone unreasonable thing and when they try to make counterpoints making up new unreasonable attacks without responding to the old arguments, but I am going to lay that to rest so there are no further issues.
I had bad experiences with that model you have last time, so I will go with this one now because I think it ensures a survivability of it better if done the right way (particularly have to call out SDT2 here, if it had succeeded (even though just purchasing a DAZ model with its morphs, adding a bunch of UE BPs and calling it a day is very questionable and not really a fitting style) I would not be here now and I was really bummed out when I found out it was abandoned), I hope your free MIT-licensed (the best open-source license) project will be published soon too. I think it has issues (namely clinging too much to the old, dead source for 7 years now) but I am not going to go into these here, that's your project and your decision-making. You can make a point for why it is a good idea in your own thread.
I hope you will not bother anyone else with promises of paid positions for a free project anymore though, even if you mean it I honestly think it is not a good idea.
 
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TheHackerKnownAsSnow

Content Creator
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Good then I hope the issue is settled for both parties now. I am not really a friend of that attacking someone unreasonable thing and when they try to make counterpoints making up new unreasonable attacks without responding to the old arguments, but I am going to lay that to rest so there are no further issues.
haha I was kinda preoccupied with defending myself, if anything talk about it when we are in a better mood

I had bad experiences with that model you have last time, so I will go with this one now because I think it ensures a survivability of it better if done the right way
Do you mean my DA character builder? That still might get made but yeah it was trash. I might but really no promises be patching DA so we'll see what can be done.

Or do you mean my organization (not a bussniss) model? If you tried something similar I'd love to hear about it sometime. I was really interested in exploring commissioned mods. I'd love your take on it

(particularly have to call out SDT2 here, if it had succeeded (even though just purchasing a DAZ model with its morphs and calling it good is very questionable and not really a fitting style)
I called that out as a scam two years ago
Also, please notice that this is a free-time project.
Wut?
hope your free MIT-licensed (the best open-source license) project will be published soon too.
Dude I was like 4mo out from doing that before this thread. I was not even a little close to go public.

I think it has issues (namely clinging too much to the old, dead source for 7 years now) but I am not going to go into these here, that's your project and your decision-making.
I think this is probably my biggest disconnect with this community. The game does not need a remake or new engine. its fine. It just needs to be easy to play. Please don't make SDT more complicated. I already need a computer science degree to make anything work in this game.

I hope you will not bother anyone else with promises of paid positions for a free project anymore though, even if you mean it I honestly think it is not a good idea.
Yeah I'll just fuck right off trying to be a philanthropist. Thanks for the advice.
 

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Do you mean my DA character builder? That still might get made but yeah it was trash. I might but really no promises be patching DA so we'll see what can be done.

Or do you mean my organization (not a bussniss) model? If you tried something similar I'd love to hear about it sometime. I was really interested in exploring commissioned mods. I'd love your take on it
No I am talking about the project 4 years ago which I went about in a similar way to you. I am not really ready to talk about it without the consent of the other members of it (those who are still active at least), but in essence, the free model is not great for something like that because it seriously limits your possibilities in what to do too. Of course, if you only do a wrapper and just that it could work. But for me, I am planning to hire voice actors to add more sounds and stuff like that.

Dude I was like 4mo out from doing that before this thread. I was not even a little close to go public.
That mentality was what made the individual project of an ex-member of said project not materialize (reference OP post) in my opinion, and I saw a part of it, it was quite far in progress. Espacially if it's open-source, go public with it sooner than later. Hell I am running a Patreon and look what I did. If people do not like it you continue to work on it until they do. And you may pick up help along the way with pull requests etc. It will NOT kill your momentum. Except if you actually stop working on it of course.

I think this is probably my biggest disconnect with this community. The game does not need a remake or new engine. its fine. It just needs to be easy to play. Please don't make SDT more complicated. I already need a computer science degree to make anything work in this game.
It's not fine, no. Modding barely works with the popular story-mods having an unfixable issue with lag on custom buttons. The UI is cluttered and not modern. The process of modding is outdated too. And don't get me started on custom positions and the non-existent AI for that. I want it to be more fool-proof from the ground up. Of course I am a big fan of endless option hierarchies, but I will try to refrain from that.

Yeah I'll just fuck right off trying to be a philanthropist.
Yes please. It brings bad tensions into a team, espacially regarding your own expectation. It only works when you commission esteemed professionals.
 

fleet

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
DaoSoul DaoSoul and TheHackerKnownAsSnow TheHackerKnownAsSnow ,
Much of this thread is of very limited value to our members. Please conduct your discussions between each other via private message.
Very respectfully,
fleet (global moderator)
 

DaoSoul

Vivacious Visitor
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Yeah, sorry sorry... Let's get back to SDT-Reborn.

I am currently working on the sound-range, I hope I can release a build with it and the proper events for it in a week.
 

CaptainVenom

Potential Patron
Joined
May 21, 2020
I'm looking forward to see how you reimagine the game in SDT-reborn, please let me know what site to go to
 
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