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[Request] white big brimmed hat

Discussion in 'SDT Requests' started by Incastings, Apr 27, 2015.

  1. Incastings

    Incastings Potential Patron

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    I've searched around the forums for such a hat but I only found ones that didn't match what I had in mind. I apologize if this is a double post... this is my first post. :P
    I'm basically searching for a white hat that has a big brim with decoration like in the previews. It doesn't have to be realistic or anything, it would be perfect if it fits the game's art style and I don't want it to cover the eye, thanks! ^^

    Just in case I fucked up the previews, here are imgur links:
    http://i.imgur.com/nXfkwtx.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/0XdzcHu.jpg
     

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  2. SyntaxTerror

    SyntaxTerror Swell Supporter Content Creator

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    Firstly, reference shots taken from the side are much better, otherwise, everything needs to be redrawn.

    Secondly, your hat is too big to fit in a PNG mod (and you wouldn't be able to add hair to it if the mod consists only of the hat). Hair or hats must fit in this red rectangle for PNG mods (I don't really know about SWF mods, but I think it is the same):

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Mineur

    Mineur Club Regular Content Creator

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    There is templates that increases the area you can work with to the right like here [​IMG] ;)

    And you can also build further up with .swf mods than what you can with .png mods!
     
  4. stuntcock

    stuntcock Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    It isn't; accessories and hairstyles packaged into an SWF mod are effectively unlimited in size. The main concern re: oversized items is that they tend to disrupt gameplay. Giant shoes collide with her buttocks when she's kneeling; giant pauldrons obscure most of her face; giant gloves make handjob mode impractical, any giant item is liable to clip through the boundary of the game window (especially when Animtools gets involved).

    Here's a quick example:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    The brim of this hat is approximately the same size as that shown in the second reference; the first reference image would be even larger.

    If the hat has a large crown then the male character's right hand will tend to "disappear" into/behind it whenever he grabs her head. If the front section of the brim is large then it will tend to clip into his abdomen during close contact (e.g. deepthroating). If the right side of the brim slants downwards then it will tend to conceal her eyes. Hence, you need to apply tricks (such as permanently bending/folding the front brim upwards, or tilting the entire hat backwards instead of having it lie flat atop her head) to make the hat less disruptive.

    It's also important to note that hats are almost always drawn on the HAIR layers, and semen strands do not collide with hair. Hence, a semen strand can pass straight through the hat brim and hit the girl in the eye - or fall "into" the hat and apparently disappear (because it lands on the top of her head). This bug-scenario is somewhat noticeable in vanilla SDT, but it becomes almost unavoidable when you bring a giant hat into play.

    The sort of adaptations needed to bring a large hat into the game without sacrificing gameplay may ruin the aesthetic appeal of the hat itself -- it may not longer seem elegant or fashionable. Alternatively, the appearance of the hat might be preserved, but it's been tilted at an angle which looks precarious or silly. Or the fitting is generally okay, but it produces unpleasant clipping effects when it's used in conjunction with your favourite SDT hairstyle (because that particular hairstyle has inappropriately made use of the HAIR_COSTUME layer).

    Hence, it's important to have a very clear idea of what the requested hat looks like (including side views, as SyntaxTerror suggested) and to sketch out how it might fit in-game (e.g. with a crude MSPaint copy-paste job on top of a SDT screenshot). If you leave the fitting to the modder's discretion then they may make choices that you disagree with (because we're not milliners, let alone mindreaders!) and then everyone walks away unhappy.



    P.S. There's also the question of physicality: if the hat's brim is especially large then we would expect it to bounce and twist slightly as she moves her head (instead of remaining perfectly stiff). Physics-based animation of a hat is possible, but it requires a non-trivial amount of modding work. Therefore, I wouldn't attempt it unless:
    • the aforementioned sizing and fitting issues have been resolved
    • the artistic design of the hat is sufficiently intricate/interesting to justify the added workload
     
  5. Incastings

    Incastings Potential Patron

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    Wow, that's very insightful!
    This may sound a bit weird but I wouldn't really mind if the gameplay gets very disruptive. The hat doesn't have to bounce and twist since I'd consider it firm (although that would look neat) and it's fine for me if the front brim clips into his abdomen.

    The size of the hat is pretty much spot on! I thought the first example ( http://i.imgur.com/nXfkwtx.jpg ) could also work as being viewed from the side like in the game, in other words, I wouldn't want the hat to be flat atop her head and the front brim could be folded upwards a bit, like in the example! :D

    I attached a clearer example of what character I want it to fit and how it could look like tho the whole hat could be tilted a little bit more backwards (MS paint is limited with rotation/tilting). Hope that clears things up! ^^

    Because I still don't trust myself:
    http://i.imgur.com/bozw9g5.png
     

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  6. stuntcock

    stuntcock Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    I kinda do care. One of the core "selling points" of SDT is the vast amount of flexibility it provides players (by mix-and-matching different components). And the game has been kept afloat by years of work by dedicated artists and modders. So it's a good idea to get maximum "mileage" out of modding work by making mods which are highly intercompatible (with both existing mods and future ones), and which have a minimal negative impact on the basic gameplay experience. Sometimes, this forces us to compromise on artistic fidelity to the reference images.

    For example, I wouldn't consider it worthwhile to create a hat which "works" only with a single custom hairstyle, or a hat which depends on a specialized body-replacement mod (because it doesn't even fit onto the normal head).

    The abdomen-clipping stuff is acceptable to me; none of the stuff proposed thus far would incur an excessive impact on gameplay. I just wanted to ensure that you were aware of the visual "flaw" before we proceed.

    I assumed that your original reference images were more about "this is the sort of thing I want" rather than "this is exactly what I want." I would recommend that you take a few minutes to browse through Google images in case you find something that you find especially appealing. As SyntaxTerror mentioned previously, side views are essential. But if you've already got the side view, then it doesn't hurt to include additional images of the same hat.

    Creating a hat isn't very labour- or skill-intensive (when compared to a full costume or dynamic hairstyle) but it's still a few hours of work. Modders are going to be upset if they deliver the file and then you say "oops I found something nicer; can we start over?"

    We can proceed with the original reference if you want to, but please take the time to double-check. There's no need to rush.

    Understood; the scale and positioning make sense. Just to confirm - are you looking for a lacy/gauzy hat (which would show some details of her hair, the scene background, etc) or a fully-opaque hat? Both options are do-able (and feel free to browse through some more reference images before making a decision); I just want to avoid any risk of misunderstanding.

    Physics animation isn't limited to flexure of the hat brim. For example, the hat might include:
    • a large ornamental flower (whose petals would sway slightly as the character's head moves)
    • a long feather stuck through the hatband (which points upwards but can flop either forwards or backwards depending on the orientation of the hat, and which could be "flicked" back and forth by nodding her head)
    • a trailing ribbon (which would behave like an SDT ponytail, albeit much lighter)

    The reason that I'm interested in such details is that SDT is a surprisingly kinaesthetic game. There are many other "interactive sex" games (e.g. Illusion) which offer an extensive ability to adjust scene composition (e.g. props, lighting) and offer a wide variety of characters and sexual positions. Yet... the actual gameplay is limited to "click repeatedly to advance to the next scene" or "use the mousewheel to adjust the speed of the action." These games must engage through their audio and visuals, because the gameplay is simply not immersive. From a design perspective, these games are failures: they'll be abandoned as soon as their cutting-edge graphics cease to amaze the audience.

    SDT encourages the player to take direct control of the actions occuring on-screen, which allows for kinaesthetic engagement. When we include minor physics-animation details in the scene, we reinforce this type of engagement. We help the player to imagine the game sprites as real objects. We encourage the player to explore the simulation (e.g. via sby's animtools mod -- "what would happen to this scene if the characters were flipped upside-down?"). And, if nothing else, we make the game look more interesting (assuming that all of the extra physics bullshit hasn't crippled the CPU and dropped the framerate to single digits).

    tl;dr - I like physics simulation and I try to shoehorn it in everywhere. We don't need to include it here; it's just an option.



    Suggestion: While you're browsing through hat images, try to identify 2-3 candidates of increasing complexity. We can tackle the simplest one first, and then (if you're happy with the results) we can attempt the more challenging ones.

    Caveat: Since the later hats would be more technically difficult, I would ask you to assist with the modding work by doing some vector-tracing of the reference images. If you're willing to learn Flash then you're welcome to take a larger role; if you're unable to assist then we'd probably stop after the first one (unless I get really bored and decide the do the whole thing myself).
     
  7. Incastings

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    Hmm.. good point. I can certainly respect that level of dedication and I would of course want this to be available/work with other mods and/or hairstyles. I understand.

    No, the reference wasn't a "sort of", the screenshot I showed is how I'd like the hat to look like (except tilted a bit more backwards like I said). I'd want the brim and hat itself to not be transparent while the decorations/details are lacy/gauzy, perhaps more of her hair and the background is visible the farther away from the center and closer to the edge of the decorations since the laces aren't as crowded.

    The large ornamental flower ( http://i.imgur.com/MKURcge.png ) would look amazing if it swayed how you described it! Oh and the brim can sway a little bit too!

    I like the idea of the feather a lot! But I'm not sure how it would be positioned.. my guess is it would point towards "him" when it's idle? Perhaps you could show me a screenshot too give you my better thoughts on that, but I'm sure I'd love it!

    And I'm not too sure what you mean by trailing ribbon.. isn't that the same as a hatband? ???

    Again, you can screenshot it to let me know.
    However, if it's not possible to add all of these, just go with the flower then.
     
  8. stuntcock

    stuntcock Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    Hmmm. I think that I understand what you mean, but the technical implementation is going to be tricky. Flash is good at presenting materials with partial transparency (water, glass, smoke, etc) but AFAIK it's less good at rendering a "lace" or "mesh" consisting of many thin opaque lines whose interstices are fully transparent. We can easily create a grid texture, but it might be tricky to "bend" it so that it follows the curves of the hat's fabric. And even if the result is visually acceptable, the performance impact may be excesive.

    I'll get back to you after I've done some reading.

    Note: if anyone lurking this thread has run into this sort of thing before, then I'd appreciate your input. The closest match that I can recall was a guy who created "chainmail" from hundreds of tiny sprites (but the resulting mod was an unplayable proof-of-concept because the CPU burden was insane).

    Apologies - I've miscommunicated. I meant that "if you select a hat design whose centerpiece is a long feather (or flower or trailing ribbon, etc) then I can try to apply physics animation to it."

    I don't intend to add physics-animated accessories to an already-finished design, because I'm not a designer and I expect that the result would look crowded/messy.

    I don't see a flower here. It looks to me like a pair of concentric spiral coils, with some excess fabric being pinned(?) against the crown of the hat. The fabric composing the flower/spiral would obviously be able to move, but I can't visualize the three-dimensional shape of this hat well enough to understand the proper motion of its parts (and hence - I can't animate them independently).

    It's actually going to be somewhat challenging for me to even trace this design due to the number of overlapping layers. I can probably add some flexion to the forward brim (and maybe vertical bounce for the "drooping" background brim) but further animation is unlikely.

    To be fair... the topic said "white hat" and the first reference image was black :P

    Are we just doing a photonegative effect (mostly-white hat with black accents), or do you want to shift the whole thing into a white-on-white colour scheme?
     
  9. Incastings

    Incastings Potential Patron

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    We misunderstood each other with what we thought was the flower. The example you linked isn't what I had in mind.

    That's what I considered the flower, it's a similar texture as the hat.



    My apologies for poor communication. Yes, I thought of shifting the colors into a white scheme. This is why I also showed the character with the white dress because I want the hat to go along with that dress.

    Oh and as for transparency, that was just me being excited about the whole thing, I'd be happy with just partial transparency. I'd write more but it's late and I'm tired.
     
  10. stuntcock

    stuntcock Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    It probably wouldn't suffice - you'd end up with something that looks like a collection of intersecting smoke rings. If we switch to a white-on-white colour scheme then we lose most of the visual information re: depth and layering (because this information is delivered primarily through contrast). There would be no apparent structure to the hat; the eye would have difficulty in distinguishing foreground from background. There would be little indication that the object is made from curled sheets of lace.

    We might be able to create something recognizable by using moderate-brightness moderate-opacity fills with full-brightness borders -- it would look nothing like "lace" but it might pass for "silk." We'd then apply conventional gradient-shading techniques to illustrate surface details and contour lines (as a substitute for the "missing" thread lines). But this approach requires artistic creativity (which I lack) and it makes physics animation infeasible, so I'm not interested in pursuing it.

    I haven't found a workable solution.
    • trace the lines as-is
      • not feasible. The reference image is of insufficient resolution.
      • even with a highres image, it would be too much work. Not even worth starting because I'd inevitably ragequit after a few hours of tedium.
      • even if the trace was done perfectly, the runtime performance would be lousy.
      • even if the performance penalty is ignored, the lines are simply too thin. We'd run into aliasing problems when the game is played at normal zoom levels.
      • physics animation would be possible, but ludicrously expensive.
    • trace the boundaries of each sheet (do-able) and apply a mesh texture to each one
      • technically feasible - the tracing would require a half-hour at most
      • if aliasing problems occur, they could be resolved (in a low-effort way) by making the mesh texture more coarse
      • visually unsatisfactory. It would look somewhat like Gankutsuou - artsy as fuck and richly detailed, but giving the viewer bad/misleading information about the shape of the object that they're looking at.
      • the hat would be ineligible for physics animation
    • trace each sheet into many small sections and apply a mesh texture to each one
      • this approach would involve a fair amount of tracing work
      • since the texture could be oriented along the axis of each section, we'd be able to show some internal twists and curves
      • problem: wherever two sections meet, the textures would not mesh cleanly. We'd see ugly seams and discontinuities everywhere.
      • physics animation would be possible, but it would call attention to the seams and make the hat even uglier.
    I'll just admit that I can't do anything productive with this hat design. I'm going to bow out, in the hope that someone else has a clever approach which will make it possible to render the hat properly in Flash.