Understanding Ryona : Why? (1 Viewer)

[CuriousHyperGamer]

Simply said there is a fair amount of hate and misunderstanding for the ryona fandom as a whole usually, disregarding the different kinds of tastes that the umbrella definition encompasses.
I want to bring together three different thoughts about Ryona in this, one from a forum on the internet, one from a personal anecdote I had myself with my psychologist in therapy, and the last is a textbook description of what Fetish is.


1) Attempted Psychoanalysis of Ryona by TrainDodger of TVTropes.

Main Ryona Discussion - TV Tropes

"I think that this highly Freudian fetish is deeply misunderstood not only by its critics, but by many of its fans as well. Despite appearing to be naught but simple misogyny at first glance, it is actually a rather complex and nuanced mental exercise, incorporating elements of:

Sadomasochism: There's an obvious sadomasochistic edge to it. In Ryona, the masculine is synonymous with violence, and the feminine with the property of being beholden to that violence. The more helpless or imperiled the victim, the more pleasure the audience receives. However, one does not necessarily need to be a sadist to enjoy the genre. One may perhaps try to step into the victim's shoes, thus embodying the feminine/masochistic aspect rather than the masculine/sadistic one. Nevertheless, it is very clear that domination/submission plays a key role in the fetish.

Schadenfreude: The audience may place themselves under the false impression that the feminine represents a state of undeserved protection from harm or loss, whether physical, emotional or financial in nature. Part of the... "enjoyment"... (to use the term loosely) of the genre comes from a perceived reversal of this trend. The key is that the audience must create a fantasy world within his or her own mind where the real-world status quo is either irrelevant or does not exist. The viewer must create the illusion that women are over-privileged and deserve to be knocked down a peg from whole cloth. This is the "negative" interpretation method.

Compassion: The audience may desire to experience strong feelings of sympathy towards the victim. They may wish to view a helpless person being brutalized so that they may picture themselves in the role of a rescuer or savior. They may further imagine the victim turning the tables on their tormentor and getting revenge for whatever act provoked the sympathetic response in the audience in the first place. The fetish may seem bizarrely contradictory in that it can embody unrestrained male chauvinism one moment and then amazon feminism in the next, with the dichotomies reversed at the audience's leisure. The part that most people don't understand about the fetish is that partaking in a sort of postmodern, surrealistic act of contradiction is a very important part of the whole experience. The fetish is - itself - highly contrarian and elitist in nature to begin with. This is the "positive" interpretation method.

Extremes: The audience derives pleasure from deeply-juxtaposed and paradoxical representations of human behavior. Their mind internalizes a complex dichotomy of the masculine versus the feminine, the chaste versus the obscene, the normal versus the abnormal, the real versus the unreal. The fetish necessitates that the audience see things in black and white, with little deviation from this formula. Under those conditions, it is only natural that the "victim" role be played by a woman. To the audience, the feminine represents a state of submission. With a few exceptions (see "Compassion" above), attempting to reverse this trend by putting a male individual in the victim role is like pulling a block out of the foundation that the fantasy is built upon. The audience's meticulously-built Jenga tower comes crashing down all around them. It's important to keep in mind that the feminine and masculine are reduced to mere symbols under the precepts of this fetish. The victim and tormentor are not "persons". They are far too two-dimensional for that. Rather, they are simply viewed as manifestations of the audience's own psyche.

Exoticism: The audience has tricked themselves into believing that they're the only ones in the world who possess this fetish/complex, disavowing the existence of like-minded individuals who possess it also. An analogy would be a wealthy millionaire who purchases a Ferrari, convincing himself of the delusion that he is the only "real" Ferrari owner in the world and that all others are illusory. Ryona is likewise highly solipsistic in nature, exploring and deconstructing the very nature of gender roles in fiction. This is a key element of the fetish; one must constantly be in a state of denial about real-world circumstances, constructing deep fantasies about gender relationships that may or may not have a basis in fact.

Ryona isn't so much a genre or a trope as it is a very specific way of interpreting certain events in a fictional context, thus deriving emotional or sexual stimulation from them. It is possible to perceive elements of this fetish or complex in works of pretty much any genre that combines physical conflict with female characters. Books, superhero comics, monster movies, exploitation flicks, video games, tokusatsu shows, etc.

Manifestations of this fetish or complex could perhaps be diagnosed as a form of neurological or psychological disorder, depending on whether or not the individual who possesses this complex suffers any ill effects from it. It could be most closely linked to sadistic or masochistic personality disorders, or even gender identity disorders. The conditions and disorders that underlie Ryona as a fetish may become pathological if the audience extends their simplistic perceptions of fictional characters to the real world (i.e. "It's okay for me to hurt this person because they're not real. They're in my head.")

So, when you tell a Ryona fan that he's sick in the head and that violence against women is commonplace, now you know why he (and it's usually a he) is so quick to lash out in response. He doesn't WANT to think that he's experiencing something common. Real-world violence against women does not interest him or dissuade him in the least. It may even repulse him. Rather, he simply wants to maintain the illusion that violence against women is uncommon and that he is experiencing something exotic and unusual by partaking of fiction that contains violence against women.

Don't take my word for it, though. I'm no psychologist. This is just my own little attempt to analyze the genre as deeply as I can and clear up any misconceptions that some people might harbor over it.

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I suppose what I meant to say - without using so many words - was that this particular trope can usually be interpreted in one of two ways; as a sadomasochistic fantasy, or as a device for cheaply invoking pathos. Sometimes, the line between those two can become blurred. An author may intend to simply torture their characters, or they may wish to elicit sympathy from the audience. Regardless of their intent, the results usually speak for themselves."

2) A Therapy visit, a view of a psychologist who never heard of Ryona before. Her first impression. (Warning: Controversial Opinion)

Her take on Ryona is quite interesting and frankly fairly controversial I believe, even on this site. She thinks it is a generally inherent human trait that exists in Everyone. Mind you I myself have problems accepting this analogy, but to overly summarise and crudely explain based on what I remember from months ago goes something like this.

Everyone is said to have this feeling for such ideas, she claims, eventhough very little. In fact the level of intensity differs with different people. And like the argument up there somehow, where she correlated with some mentions of the above mentioned theories to try and explain it. Its only when I read up there I remembered about this once more. To illustrate the point, she says that this is the reason why most people would crane their necks and is curious in accidents on the roadside, seeing things morbid and injuries and the subconscious fascination of thereof. Wrestling, and for some, female wrestling especially, does still attract crowds of many and is considered socially acceptable, even if it is about seeing violence given as well as injuries received by others. Some even argued that this is a part of the evolutionary make up inside people which is said to be inclined to violence or seeing violence due to the necessity in the far distance past for survival among the animal species.

Of course in the end this is only the first impression of a psychologist who I talked casually with at times who just saw a representation of Ryona and asked about the nolmacy and possibly how 'wrong' it is. That together with half a year of trying to remember what she said exactly over language barriers could be misunderstood. I myself don't fully agree with what she said, but it does makes me think at times.

3) What is Fetish? from 'Introducing Psychology - A Graphic Guide' by Nigel C. Benson. Some relevant excerpt.

In short I have read and studied quite much about psychology. Its a bit hard trying to summarise the really accurate ones, but at this points I decided to use a good populist introductory book I have. Not the best, but still alright to start off, so please don't get angry if this simplifies too much. If you all know about Behaviourism, Classical Conditioning, Ivan Pavlov and to some extent John B. Watson and his experiments you can skip the first paragraph.

What is Learning? Learning is a relatively permanent change in behaviour due to experience.

From 1901, (Ivan Pavlov) studied the way laboratory dogs would learn (be "conditioned") to salivate without food, (like when they hears dishes rattled or saw an assistant.)
The dog was harnessed in a sound-proof, smell-proof cubicle, so it could not see, hear or smell the assistants(!). A sound was made when food was given, and the amount of salivation was measured. After several pirings (trials), the sound was made WITHOUT food - but the dog STILL salivated!

SOUND - A Neutral Stimulus that becomes a Conditioned Stimulus
FOOD - an Unconditioned Stimulus
RECORD OF SALIVATION - an Unconditional Response to food, which becomes a Conditioned Response to a sound

The whole process can be shown as follows:
BEFORE DURING AFTER
Bell ---> no response Bell._ Bell-._
(NS) (NS) *-._ (CS) *-._
food ---> salivation food ---> salivation *-> salivation
(US) (UR) (US) (UR) (CR)

In this way, Pavlov conditioned the dog to salivate whenever the sound was made.

What is the use of getting a dog to dribble? Although Pavlov's early experiments may seem unglamorous and even trivial, they are extremely important for two main reasons.
(1) Classical Conditioning explains virtually all learning that involves REFLEXES - heart-rate, perspiration, muscle-tension, etc.
(2) Since the above group of reflexes are signs of excitement - including FEAR and SEX - they may explain unusual and undesirable behaviour, e.g. PHOBIAS and SEXUAL DEVIATION. Consequently, Classical Conditioning is the basis of BEHAVIOUR THERAPY.

And this is where Fetish comes in...

Classical Conditioning can help explain unusual sexual behaviour. Let's take the example of someone wearing rubber boots. How can this become fetishism?

BEFORE DURING AFTER
boots ---> no response boots-._ boots-._
*-._ *-._
sexual ---> sexual sexual ---> sexual *-> sexual
stimulation response stimulation response response

Such conditioning could also include other details. If the boots were muddy, then mud may also later cause sexual excitement! This OBJECT has become sexually conditioned, a fetish. Literally ANY object can be conditioned this way. Clothing is a common fetish, or materials (lace, silk rubber, leather, etc). As with conditioning, the more sexual experiences that are paired with the object(s), the more the Fetish will be reinforced and gets stronger.

Thus Classical Conditioning can explain all forms of sexual deviation, both how it starts and why it continues. For instance, voyeurism: a person sexually aroused when watching other people. Typically, a "Peeping Tom" will masturbate either when watching or shortly after. Looking at pornography, in magazines or videos, is a form of voyeurism.
[Mental Health Warning: ALL sexual activities can be highly addictive. (Men are more prone due to the relative speed of arousal and satisfaction.) ]
Sadism is a sexual pleasure from inflicting physical or mental suffering, named after the Marquis De Sade (1740-1814) - who eventually could only get satisfaction by causing pain. Masochism is sexual pleasure from receiving pain or humiliation. Sadists and Masochists, not surprisingly, get on well together! Bondage (being tied up) and fetishism often accompany sadism and masochism.

My analysis from this Behavioural Theory, together with some others especially relating to childhood, applies well to why we might have enjoyed Ryona. I think it is possible that one's first or early encounter with sexual arousal happens at the same time we see Ryona happens. Hearing that moans and groans, that cry and grunts. Maybe we see something different and it amuse you and get you hooked. One way or another, we are not that bad, strange or weird. Just a little different.

[EDIT: To clarify what I mean with the messed up tables I try to draw, I meant that we happen to see something else and got aroused by that. BUT we happen to see ryona images alongside that arousal. Maybe its being aroused because of hearing a girl's voice like that for the first time... Or maybe its that orgasmic looking face of the struck opponent? Or maybe you are watching porn and playing video games at the same time? In the end its not that Ryona thing turning you on, but according to theory its something else that happens at the same time. To have sexual arousal from boots for example, maybe your first porn have someone wearing dirty rubber boots. Remember nothing is better than your first or early orgasms to start you off and have it etched for life. In the end Ryona is 'conditioned' to be what turned you on, and at times you even put them through Generalisation that makes anything similiar to what you experienced before the early Ryona, whether developed early or late, to be your general ryona zone. Well...for most people.]


In the end all I wanted is to understand more about Ryona and what makes them tick. Why do I like them? And how do other more 'normal' people on this site (I have Asperger's Syndrome, a mild form of Autism), feel or think about Ryona? I mean, I only get turned on by Ryona but nothing pornographic at all! Its hard to talk about this with others, or have proper research into this but we can always discuss and guess, right?
What do you all think? Ryona, all and all is something we all have in common, and in a way share. We do like different aspects of ryona, but its not like we are intentionally hurting people in real life because of it, right? Please share what you think about any of this below, I hope that this is done right.

 

[Snowballs]

Interesting read. Yeah I found out I was way into Ryona ever since I was 4-5yo when I got a wierd feeling whenever Chun Li was KO'd in a match. Continued on and I found this fetish grow from Smash Bros with Peach and then my interest in female wrestling. It's a fascinating fetish and it's odd because it seems to be "Hard to look for" when it comes to fetish sites. I keep stumbling on FemaleDom stuff or other fetishes that just turn me off; maybe it's just me =/.

 

[Steve15]

For me Ryona is more of a sub-fetish of a larger general humiliation fetish.

I'm hetero, so, you know, women are always a plus in any fetish I have. I also have a distinct interest in the idea of competition, namely the victory/defeat dichotomy. This naturally has evolved somewhat to encompass Ryona. I don't look at Ryona and think "Man, women getting beaten up is hot", the fact they're getting beaten up is just a necessary step towards the act of them being defeated.

There are exceptions to this sometimes, like for example wrestling, the build-up towards the end of the match is sometimes the best part. Watching one wrestler slowly lose ground, realize they're being outclassed before being finished off with some impressive move that leaves them flat on their back. The thing that mostly drew me to this site was the concept of Zako, which to me is like a lot of my favourite things without the need to just watch someone get pummeled for 20 minutes; it makes it a bit of a pain to find stuff on Youtube because of this, haha, lots of ryona vids are just edited together scenes of female characters getting punched or thrown and very rarely getting finished off.

I find lately its started to kinda develop a little bit more in my mind-- as fetishes tend to do-- in that I see it more as a gender-domination. At least in regards to F/F Ryona. My ideal scene involves a group of fighters (Royal Rumble style) in a free-for-all format that leaves one woman standing at the end. This largely-- to me at least-- is sort of an analogy for sexual "survival of the fittest", the dominant female subduing her sexual rivals. To me this plays perfectly to the whole "thrill of victory/agony of defeat" which plays the biggest role in my fetish and also fuels my love of Zako.

So really, to me, Ryona is a means to an end-- sometimes a pleasant means, sometimes a bit of a tedious one, it really depends on the situation!

I do agree with your Psychologist though. I think an appreciation for violence is part of the human condition, it just manifests itself in different ways, and to different degrees. History is rife with violence being used as a means to entertain, and even now our gladiators have become MMA fighters and boxers. I mean hell, the Norse people actually fashioned their heaven around killing each other.

Some people like to watch two guys punch each other in the face for money (boxing), some people like to watch violent action/horror movies, and some people like to watch scantily clad girls battle for dominance. If anything, ours is less worrying than some because at least ours are all about fantasy, and nobody actually gets hurt (*cough*MMA*cough*).

 

[RyonaDamsels]

I read that every human (including females) has sadism and masochistic genes together even if one gene's percentage is superior to the other , it just differ from one person to the other and from men to women according to their genes and their life style that determines whether those characteristics grow in themselves or not , it is known that usually men have more chance to have way more sadistic genes while women has more chance to have way more masochistic genes , Normal sex between a male and a female can be a small example of sadism/masochistic as males are the ones who dominate and apply while females are the ones who submit and receive , A famous sex game between male and female is having the female tied up to make the male feel more dominant and make the female feel more submissive , there is a theory that sadistic percentage is increased by the androgen hormone (male's hormone) percentage while masochistic percentage is increased by the estrogen percentage (female's hormone) , So as long as your level of sadism doesn't make you seriously enjoy hurting and torturing other people so bad even if she is your wife then you are normal and fine , I think the majority of us enjoy the feeling of capturing and controlling women and pretending to torture them but not actually hurting them really .

So the concept of dominance/submissive isn't an unnatural one as long as it doesn't get out of hand and turns out to actually hurt people , Keep in mind that there is a huge number of people around the world that are aware of their sadism/masochistic fetishes and habits but are afraid/feel ashamed to talk about it so we really don't know the percentage of the ones with dominance/submissive fetishes . I think the technology and media of the 20th and 21th century unleashed the hidden powers of the sadism/masochistic genes in every human and it is up to him/her genes to react to it or not

 

[glutton]

I like ryona as a way to show the female characters' toughness, since I prefer to imagine them eventually coming back and winning after taking a lot of punishment in my ryona scenarios lol.

 

[Stuelpner_Karl]

... the build-up towards the end of the match is sometimes the best part. Watching one wrestler slowly lose ground, realize they're being outclassed before being finished off with some impressive move that leaves them flat on their back. The thing that mostly drew me to this site was the concept of Zako, which to me is like a lot of my favourite things without the need to just watch someone get pummeled for 20 minutes;

Steve is taking the words out of my mouth, since I too see a survival of the fittest idea behind Zako action. In decimation scenarios, a member of a large group isn't really fighting to defeat that one very strong foe. By movie logic, you can't kill the monster until your group is down to a handful of people.

And I love competitive fights, with the thrill of victory and especially the agony of defeat. I love to see every competitor, no matter how unimportant the character is in the context of the story, as a realistic person. They are somebody's child, sibling, friend, spouse or parent. It took them a couple of decades to reach this point in life and they have a quite confident vision of how this life will go on. But they are on collision course with someone else's plans, and one life will derail - or simply come to an unexpected end.

It's important that the future victim goes into the scene confident. I don't want to see conscripts sent to the slaughter or poor peasants being terrorized. And I certainly don't want to see women getting raped and abused by stronger men or something like that.

I love the rollercoaster of emotions: The way the characters are depicted, there is an element of Schadenfreude, triggering lighthearted reactions like "Oops!", "Serves you right!" or "No big loss!" But since I love to envision the scene from the receiving end, compassion is important.

Turning the tables and winning the fight, or at least surviving it in one piece, gives relief. Being unceremoniously eliminated is like a punch to the stomach ("memento mori"). The possibility of both gives thrill and suspense. Many of my favorite scenes have this "Oh my god, please, no!" moment and often it's possible to imagine an alternate ending.

Principally it works with any combination of male and female competitors, and some of my favorite fight or Zako scenes are featuring exclusively men. But as a male, I love to see my favorite type of woman playing a major role. And this major role includes to imagine her as a likeable person who means the world to somebody (but not to the casual audience). And then, usually caused by her own arrogance, ignorance or greed, she becomes subject to painful or humiliating actions, malicious glee and possible FATALITY.

Sometimes she can defeat movie logic and fight her way out of this peril, sometimes not.

Example:
One of my favorite scenes comes from a German TV series.
A sleazy promoter wants to convince a rising female boxer to lose a fight, so he can make much money with the bet. She refuses, so he kidnaps her brother. While the fight is already on the way, the heros have to free the brother and give her a signal, otherwise she will have to lay down in the final round. Of course they do, the promoter wants to make the trainer throw the towel, but her father jumps in and knocks him out. At the end, the promoter and the other boxer hit the ground simultaneously and everybody is happy.

Except me, because I just fell in love with the other girl.

We don't see her outside of the fight and I'm not sure if they even mentioned her name. How much she knows about the promoters criminal tactics is up to our imagination.
The good girl is of turkish descent, looking tanned and athletic.
Her opponent is the pale, reddish type. This makes her look less athletic and a bit out of shape.
(I think the idea behind this casting was to boost the view that the good girl deserves the victory.)

She's my type of woman, so I imagine the situation through her eyes. She's not a rising star, not as focused as the good girl, but a talented boxer. And while the good girl has her father and brother, she probably already has a family to care for too.
She got the hint that she might score the upset tonight, thanks to the promoters shady tactics, and has no problem with it. It means good money and at least one more lucrative bout for her.

And she enjoys to thrash her opponent, who isn't allowed to fight back.

In the final round, everything changes and she realizes that the good girl's wrath will come down on her like a sledgehammer. All the energy not used in the rounds before will concentrate into one final blow, that will knock her into oblivion. She desperately hopes to make it through the round, to be saved by the bell...

 

[CuriousHyperGamer]

To accentuate the psychology behind fetish, and show that no matter how different it seems to various people or 'weird' it is...
In the end it all comes to what comes to you by circumstance and at times situation.
Its not something we necessarily pick, but sometimes its what we see.

?Office lady in heels walking on tatami?: The mysterious world of Japanese fetishism | RocketNews24

When you think about it, we do not necessarily choose what we get fetishised to, so because of this its always good to know and to respect each other...despite what kinds of fetish we feel about it. And at times, its even more deeply embed when you got a group or a market for that kind of fetish...since it can feeds into the feelings of lust and make you more subconsciously comfortable in your fetish zone.

So long that you didn't affect or infringed upon the rights of others. When you have other people involved, then rules that is followed in BDSM community applies. Both have to be consensual, limits have to be drawn and both must be capable of making the decision soundly.
Remember never to ridicule whatever fetish you might encounter, no matter how strange of weird it is. So long as they don't physically bother you or others its a free country.

 

[CuriousHyperGamer]

Another good video with regards to why we might actually be into Ryona in general.



While it is not exactly related 100%, it in some sense ties in together with the psychologist who I sat with a long time ago.

And it didn't really explain why some people enjoy being submissive either...
Though this might give an insight into the thought, since I am kind of in this camp.

Autassassinophilia - Wikipedia

A weird mix of wanting to be the one doing it, as well as the thrill of it being possibly done to you?

Its a little hard to explain it all if you ask me.

Regardless, I wish you all a good Christmas...and I pray a Happier New Year.