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Zako Victory or Defeat?

Discussion in 'Zako' started by Psythe, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. Psythe

    Psythe Potential Patron

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    Hi all,

    I've recently had a discussion with someone who is a fan of Zako at least partly from the perspective of what you might call the reverse of the traditional Zako: where the female mooks take down the heroine before she has a chance to complete her objective(whatever it is). This incidentally is what got me into liking Zako a month or so ago, as it plays to my interests of humiliation and similar in that the heroine is embarrassingly beaten by common enemies before she even has a chance to face a 'formidable' foe, emphasizing her failure. The person who introduced me to it had these reasons for liking it also.

    Anyway, that got me to thinking it would be a good topic for another of these 'this or that?' threads.

    Concerning Zako, do you prefer it when the heroine disposes of a bunch of female mooks(regular Zako) in any of a number of ways, or do you like the heroine to be overwhelmed by the zako enemies? Both? Why?

    I'd love to hear your thoughts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2014
  2. x_countryguy

    x_countryguy Potential Patron

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    I like the heroine taking out zako for a while (gotta show the heroine isn't worthless) before getting worn down. Heroine can be worn down by getting overwhelmed or back attacked several times or when the boss shows up to try and clean up.
     
  3. NNin

    NNin Swell Supporter Ryonani Teamster

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    I have interested in this for some years. Maybe because...
    -Growing up with typical heroine taking out many zako before she reachs the boss surely made me wanted to find something else.
    -Some games have well trained zako that can give the main character a match and can perform dead special moves on her. Ex. Tenchu series.

    Whatever a reason, I like both. Though I lean more to zako able to defeat the heroine via numbers, tactic, dirty trick, luck etc.
    Even better if the zako is well trained and does unexpected trick such as skillful attack or counter the heroine's signature move.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2014
  4. ran

    ran Vivacious Visitor

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    I think either side wins is fine. It depends on the progress.

    The zako might win because they are the stronger side after all. Although the heroine might take out some of them, female minions could be victorious via:
    Strength in numbers. The most common mistake of female minions is that they only enter battle in small groups each time in most games. They can overwhelm heroine by deploying enough people at one moment. Finally, the heroine will fail into the mountain of sexy minion bodies.
    Cooperation. For female minions who are well trained or have good relationships, they can fight in a team instead of several individuals against heroine. Minions can apply their own strength to launch a comprehensive attack or share damage.
    Relatively better quality. Although "heroine" means she outplay female minions, elite female minions or boss can minimize the gap between them and the heroine. Toughness of each member can get heroine defeated in front of dawn of victory.
     
  5. Amazon Shark

    Amazon Shark Casual Client

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    I'm OK with the hero or heroine knocking out or killing a bunch of henchwomen before being overwhelmed by their numbers. I prefer they all get defeated, but as long as at least a few get defeated, I'm good.
     
  6. Psythe

    Psythe Potential Patron

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    Now that is a sentence worth remembering!

    @Nnin I am really a fan of, out of the ones you named; tactics and countering a signature move. There's really something to be said for a heroine who gets defeated by minions as a result of anticipating dumb 'cannon fodder', as mostly seen in action films, games etc. and instead getting a well coordinated team(or a single minion, as the case may be) of intelligent hench-women who take advantage of said heroine's naivete, through proving to be cunning and shrewd, using effective tactics, or showing that they know more about the heroine than anticipated, and thus are able to effectively counter her, as in the case of your signature move example. I love it.

    Oh and by the way, let me be yet another to say I love your Petals :)
     
  7. Weoooo

    Weoooo Avid Affiliate

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    I, and I think other people who are into this, tend to not figure a heroine into the picture. It's always been a hero for me, and I think part of that is for the self-insertion factor. I'm fairly certain I got this because of video games, so it makes sense to me that so much of it is bound up in my ability to project into the scene. I think it's why I hate lethality so much; the idea of taking someone's life fills me with horror. That isn't exactly the most erotic of emotions.
    When I first started looking around, I was going entirely for images of defeated zakos. Of course I didn't know that term, and almost never found what I was looking for. But over time I've started to really like both. One of my favorite MNL images is this one: [​IMG]
    There's something very appealing about being brought down by being piled on and overwhelmed to me. I guess I don't have to explain it that much, it's pretty easy to get. Your friend and mine Excess M has gone to town with this theme and it's inherent sexual connotations. It's not hard to understand the allure of having a veritable horde of beautiful women all up over you.
    But I think what draws a lot of people to the fetish is the innate helplessness of the henchwoman. No matter how trained they are, their role in the story is to be overcome. I mean one of my other favorite MNL images is:
    [​IMG]
    It's weird to me, because I find the fear is both incredibly erotic but also gives me a strong protective urge. I can't really think of many artists that took the idea of being kind to zako and ran with it, though. I think that's just my thing.
     
  8. Mystral Kiss

    Mystral Kiss Potential Patron

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    I love this thread.

    My preferences mirror Psythe and NNin for the most part. Although I won't complain about either direction (victory or defeat), I like to see the heroine ultimately get overwhelmed by the female zako, especially when it comes with humiliation and taunting.

    My favorite kind of situation: the heroine first defeats a handful of zako quite easily, but she is unexpectedly and embarrassingly taken down by the next few that arrive. That way you get both flavors of zako ryona, and it opens up the opportunity to see the heroine lose her advantage in different ways:


    • Weaker zako wearing down heroine with numbers
    • Heroine encountering elite zako who surprises her with her skills
    • Zako specifically countering or nullifying the heroine's signature move
    • Zako using an underhanded tactic or technology to turn the advantage (and they wouldn't have won otherwise)
    • Heroine taking the fight too lightly, not expecting them to put up a decent fight
    • Heroine facing a villain and is just barely winning, but two or three zako suddenly arrive to defeat her
    • Lowly zako using blackmail or a hostage to force the heroine to surrender

    Of course, before the heroine is captured, the zako would find plenty of opportunity to tease her and make sure she knows how embarrassing it is that she lost! The humiliation factor is a big part of it for me, so I always enjoy taunting.

    I could go on about the heroine's post-defeat fate at the hands of the zako, but perhaps that is off-topic :D
     
  9. Cuntington

    Cuntington Vivacious Visitor

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    My first reaction at seeing this was to burst out laughing.
    I was like "...Are the ninja henchwomen trying to bring him down by dogpiling on him? That's gotta be a first!"
     
  10. Weoooo

    Weoooo Avid Affiliate

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    Yeah, it IS pretty funny. I think the absurdity is one of the reasons I like it even after all these years. It's non-threatening.
     
  11. Stuelpner_Karl

    Stuelpner_Karl Avid Affiliate

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    I don't really like the idea of an unlimited supply of minions, defeated by the main characters on the way to the more important battles. In a Zako scenario, the Zakos are the star and the main villain may be just there to give everybody a reason to fight. ("Boss MacGuffin")

    It makes things more interesting if they score a temporary win:
    This allows us to see more from the minor baddies, finding our favorites in the big group.

    Then they may get cocky, allowing the heroine to make a comeback or another heroine to join the fray. Usually, their victory only sets the Zako up for an even worse defeat at the end.
     
  12. DynamiteFetish

    DynamiteFetish Avid Affiliate Ryonani Teamster

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    I love zako victory. Be it either a large number of girls vs the player or 'hero' or whatever or a one on one. Or even the girls winning alongside other male enemies (that's kind of hot and realistic, too). They can be fairly mooky or more elite-type zako, both is excellent. Some zako in my favourite games can actually outclass the player in their grabs and damage they inflict. A number of the best zako games have victory dialogue and actions from the zako, allowing for the player to make a 'come back' if they like that too. ;)

    Check out my youtube channel to see what I mean.. OTAKULIVE - YouTube

    Edit - plus all the above. Nice thread! :cool2:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2014
  13. KeiBreilSL

    KeiBreilSL Vivacious Visitor

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    I think I'm the minority here. I don't like zako to even have a chance... at all. No confidence, no winning. Just defeat :)
     
  14. zippgun

    zippgun Vivacious Visitor

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    Well - I belong to that minority as well!

     
  15. ran

    ran Vivacious Visitor

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    I like zako did not take a chance as well. It really depends on the process. The key is that no one holds back.

    Both sides do their best and fight to death. (So I do not like wrestling or catfight) Their goal is clear, their mind is strong, their determination is firm. No surrender, escape or survive (except winners). (So Aika type is not that good)

    On the other hand, I prefer hand-to-hand fight because it keeps the integrity and beauty of female bodies, ideally just clothes were worn and maximum just a little blood. (So western amazon style is terrible). Meanwhile, I hope the story is meaningful (No arena) and fight is 'real' (No magic).

    At end of the day, it is really difficult for one to find out exactly one wants, especially when one cannot draw...
     
  16. DynamiteFetish

    DynamiteFetish Avid Affiliate Ryonani Teamster

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    It would be incredibly boring if we all liked the same thing round here!
     
  17. Amazon Shark

    Amazon Shark Casual Client

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    Actually, I would be fine with them being confident, thinking they can win because they are many, but still being defeated.
     
  18. KeiBreilSL

    KeiBreilSL Vivacious Visitor

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    I'll explain it a bit further since it's kind of lame to just say "I like losing!"

    Most of the time I spend on the zako theme is either roleplaying online, or writing stories. When I do this, I envision myself as the zako. I have no idea how to fight, I'm not evil (I don't think at least), and I wouldn't be confident going after a clearly superior enemy. I do make dumb decisions however, so that's where me becoming a zako comes from.

    It's more about the fear I guess, knowing that I have no chance, and not wanting to fight but being taken down anyways and forgotten.

    I dunno, I'm weird that way :P
     
  19. cyke70

    cyke70 Vivacious Visitor

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    I think I and Kaitlyn are on the exact same positions here.

    I envision Zakos as neither good or evil... just conscripts of some sort, forced to fight in bloody battles by ruthless officers, for a corrupt Empire/Government/organization.

    As such, they are just expendable and conveniently replaceable basic combat units with minimal training, equipment and weapons. They are not expected to survive many fights anyway... if any. Their commanders are not minimally concerned with losses and their foes take their lives with plain indifference.

    In my vision then, Zakos lose... miserably and hopelessly. They are just lambs to the slaughter, whose demise is just insignificant to everyone... except me: the reader!
    I feel pity for them and their tragic situation, nevertheless I can't help getting attracted by the annihilation of platoons of helpless minions.

    So, Kaitlyn: you're definitely not as weird as me, I believe! ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2014
  20. Stuelpner_Karl

    Stuelpner_Karl Avid Affiliate

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    I don't think they should be "conscripts of some sort, forced to fight." The Zakos enter the fight voluntarily because they don't realize that they're about to "lose... miserably and hopelessly."

    Indeed their "demise is just insignificant to everyone... except me: the reader!" (And to their friends and relatives, who usually only appear in my imagination.)

    And since it's so significant to me, it makes their fate the main part of the scene. As a result, it can make a bad movie appear much better. Casual viewers may say "it's obvious who will make it to the final battle and who will win. This is so boring!"

    Meanwhile I keep my eyes peeled to find out what's going to happen to the cute redheaded guard standing near the doorway. Will she get knocked out or captured? Will she die in horrendous fashion or live to fight another day? Will her family ever learn what happened to her? It can make an otherwise bad movie really thrilling.

    Unfortunately, it often works the other way around: The movie is over and I haven't seen my cute redhead again. And while casual viewers don't even notice, I'm seriously pissed about this stupid movie.