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Guilty Gear I-no hair+hat

Discussion in 'SDT Requests' started by BossNova, Oct 3, 2016.

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  1. BossNova

    BossNova Potential Patron

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    Newbie here, hopefully I got the rules down. Excuse me for the demanding request, but here goes:

    Requesting I-no (I think the dash breaks the forum search, sadly), but I would like two versions, XX and Xrd. I think I like her XX look a bit more where it's a bit more feathery instead of her Xrd look where it's more of a bowl cut. But I also like her look in general in Xrd, but maybe that's because of the HD graphics.

    I would like the hat in both versions. I'd also like two versions of each hairstyle where the hat is covering her eyes and one where it's not.

    It's really hard to find straight-on side-views of her, but I'm hoping her hairstyle is simple enough. I know the GIFs aren't traceable, but hopefully it gives a better idea of how her hair should look.

    Full disclosure: I posted this earlier in D-Oxygen's thread, but I see that he's been busy IRL lately and I missed his summer vacation where he would have been more free to work on this.

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  2. stuntcock

    stuntcock Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    Instead of preemptively apologizing for making excessive demands ... you could simply refrain from making excessive demands :p

    The search tool dislikes short words. We need to rely on Google when dealing with three-letter names.

    SDT is a game about fellatio. A girl wearing a large-brimmed hat is going to experience some difficulty in that department - her hat will get in the way. There are a few possible solutions, but it can be tricky for an artist or modder to resolve the problem. Our prefered approach might ruin the charm of the original design, or contradict some aspect of canon from the source material. This particular hat seems to be alive, so maybe that means that squashing it (to fit the available space) would be inappropriate. We could simply tilt the hat backwards so that it won't collide with the guy's body, but the resulting image would be very different from the references which you've provided (and it certainly won't cover the eyes, as you've asked).

    Here's a previous post which dealt with an even larger hat. The key point is that modders don't necessarily know anything about your character (aside from the pictures that you've provided) so we need your input on creative questions.

    Take a look at that post. If any of the suggested fixes seem appropriate or feasible then please say so (or propose some other solution). If you're comfortable with the hat slicing through the guy's pelvis then okay, but please let us know that. Please also provide a rough sketch of how the hat ought to fit (e.g. by scribbling a big red triangle onto a few SDT screenshots).

    "Please create four similar things, and then I'll decide which one I like most." Designers hate dealing with indecisive clients, even when they're being paid for their time. When someone is volunteering to work on your project, it's impolite to waste their time by asking for duplicate work. When there are hundreds of other requests waiting to be fulfilled, it's also a fairly selfish request.

    More to the point: it's unlikely to work. The hat cannot fit onto the PNG template, so you're limiting yourself to Flash modders - which is a fairly small group. You're reducing your chances further by asking for duplicate work, by being vague about how the hat should fit, and by providing poor reference images.

    It's true that someone could say "I don't wanna create all four variations, so I'll just tackle one of them." But that's rare. People usually want to feel that they've fulfilled a request -- if they don't think that they can finish it then they usually won't even start. Hence, it's a good idea to limit your scope as much as possible.

    Also: you're new here. That's not exactly a criticism, but the fact is that many newbies vanish from Undertow after a week or so. If I'm going to do hours of unpaid work for someone, then I'm more comfortable doing it for someone who has contributed to the forum (or someone whom I reasonably expect to stick around and contribute in the future). I could simply wait-and-see whether you get involved ... but meanwhile you're probably waiting to see whether anyone helps out with your request. Result: nobody volunteers, the mod doesn't get made, you get disappointed, you stop visiting the site. Everybody loses.

    You can resolve this difficulty by contributing to your own request (finding good references, tracing vectors, creating charcodes, providing feedback, etc).

    Are you expecting the hairstyle (and/or hat) to be animated? If so then you must say so explicitly because it's a different modding task. If not then that's fine, but please be aware that your GIF files might "scare away" some modders who don't do animated hairstyles.
     
  3. BossNova

    BossNova Potential Patron

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    Look, that's me acknowledging that it's a demanding request, balanced with the simple fact that I want this done. I thought I'd be humble about it instead of just coming in saying "do this, do that" with no sense of decorum.

    I initially read your response as passive-aggressiveness, but intent can be lost with pure text removed from face-to-face interaction. I want to give this the benefit of the doubt.

    This is fine. I'll post my feedback to this in a subsequent post.

    I am not being indecisive. I want all four. I would think it's not a lot of trouble because of the digital aspect of the medium. Alas, I am not an artist, designer, nor anything of the creative sort. Far be it from me to speak for them, but I don't think you speak for each and every of them either when you make those statements.

    I understand the concept of someone volunteering their time to fulfill this request. But it's just that: a request and nothing more. If it never gets fulfilled, no skin off my back. It's as if I never asked at all.

    I'm quite aware of the request board, seeing as that's where we are right now. I perceive the hyperlink to it as another form of passive-aggressiveness.

    Now calling my request selfish? That's unmistakably aggressive. All requests in and of themselves are selfish. This sounds like you're poking at the contribution factor which we'll get to later.

    I don't think my request about the hat is vague at all. One with the hat covering her eyes and one not. I've provided what specifics I can, but I'm giving the artist creative freedom to fit it within their boundaries. I don't tell someone how to wipe their ass because I don't like restricting things as if there's only one way to do it. I don't mind the methods as long as the result is not totally off the mark.

    I read the reference images guide before posting. I looked through all the suggested links provided. I realize the reference shots I provided are inadequate. My character is severely limited in terms of official artwork that satisfies your standards.

    Again, I read passive-aggressiveness in your word choice of "poor", amplified by the way the sentence started. But I can't control your expectations. You will just have to trust that I did my due diligence.

    I'm fine with a partially fulfilled request. Beats nothing. And if I get nothing, then it's no different than where I started from.

    Again I perceive passive-aggressiveness in "I could simply wait-and-see whether you get involved ...", especially the ellipses. More on this later.

    This. Let it be known that I read your rules and followed them to the best of my ability. According to said rules, I did not state the format, therefore you should have assumed it to be PNG/static.

    That said, I get that providing an animated reference can be confusing. I felt that stating that GIFs aren't traceable would have dispelled the thought of me wanting an animated version but evidently not. The GIFs were to give a more complete understanding of the hair and character.

    In the end I don't expect anything to be animated if that's what it will take to get someone to try their hand at this request, but at the same time I don't mind if they do want to animate it. At this point there have been no takers. If the would-be taker is an animator, then I'll go with that. If they do purely static hair, that's OK too and I'll go with that. To explicitly ask for strictly one or the other automatically eliminates a group of modders. "Scaring off" people would be preferable to outright excluding them. I'm casting the net as wide as possible.

    Closing remarks:
    I'm willing to work with you but I'm finding it difficult to sympathize when this is the response I get as a newcomer.

    I appreciate you pointing out things that you need; that's good! I am willing to provide that feedback and continue the dialogue there. But I don't like it when it's saddled down with what feels like "you should have known all of this so now I'm going to detail out every little flaw in your post". It's doubly disconcerting after I've already read the rules and acknowledged inadequacies in my initial request.

    It appears I've offended your sensibilities with the mere act of signing up and posting a request that did not meet your exacting standards. Furthermore by your mere mentioning of the new user statistic, it laces your proceeding remarks with a sense of judgement. I get that this is a community that thrives off volunteers. That's OK, but don't drive a point that's clearly optional.

    I get you've seen a lot of people disappear without contributing anything but that's unavoidable. My advice, take it or leave it, is to be more flexible. If someone doesn't contribute, don't push them. Continue providing resources that allow people to contribute and ones that are so inclined shall.

    I'd like to think I've done nothing wrong with simply asking for something. I have not indicated one way or another that I wouldn't contribute but in any case, your response has soured on the prospect. People need to feel welcomed in order to contribute, not pressured. The way you did it just now did not feel very inviting to me. I'm not saying you have to kiss my ass but to be blunt, I don't have to kiss yours either.

    Trust and respect is a two-way street, so trust and respect your users to contribute and they shall. The ones who don't want to wouldn't have done so anyway.

    If you really want to force the importance of contribution upon everyone, just make it a rule: Contribute or you get nothing. But I trust that you know that's not the way to go.

    Now that we're done telling each other things we should already know, I want to move on.

    I'll be glad to provide what I can to anyone who would be so kind as to fulfill my request, because I have interest in seeing it fulfilled. You should not assume any less.

    And for you, the esteemed Stuntcock, I'll provide my feedback to your specific artistic concerns in another post. I'm done for the night.
     
  4. stuntcock

    stuntcock Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    It's true that an artist could create complete drawings of the two hairstyles and two hats. It would then be trivial to "pose" the hat in different positions on the head, and thus create many variants with minimal effort (such as: XX hat on top of Xrd hair, with the hat flipped backwards, because "why the hell not?").

    But most SDT artists do not work that way. When they're presented with a hairstyle which includes a hat, they draw it as one thing. The portion of the hair "underneath" the hat is simply not drawn. The shape of the hair will be slightly stressed or deformed by the weight of the hat. The hair will be drawn with shadows and highlights based on the presence of the hat.

    Artists usually don't treat their work as a set of interchangeable components. They're looking to create a single image which looks good, instead of a mix-and-match toolkit.

    Example: consider the Future Mai hairstyle. When @D-Oxygen added a hat, he also reshaped the bangs and removed the reflection sheen.

    The text is okay, but it provides a incomplete description. There are many ways of fitting a hat which will cover the eyes, or leave them exposed. Hence, we ask for side-view reference images which can eliminate the guesswork.

    Example: I could create a SWF version of the extreme back-tilted hat image. It would avoid any complications with SDT gameplay (layering, clipping, etc). It would technically fulfill your "version with eyes not covered" request. But I'm fairly sure that this isn't what you want, since it doesn't appear in any of your references. Therefore it would be a waste of everyone's time, and so I'm not going to start working on it.

    Creative freedom is a laudable principle, but you should still be willing to provide information and express preferences.

    An artist like @D-Oxygen or @Mineur could probably work with your proposal (although the latter rarely draws videogame characters). These guys have enough experience and artistic skill to visualize something based on partial references, and then draw a completely new side-view image. Unfortunately, they mostly work in PNG format (where the canvas limitations will tend to crop off parts of your hat, or squash it very aggressively to fit). So it's useful to show them how you'd like to squeeze the hat into the available space.

    On the other hand, there are Flash modders like @Faceless and @dantethedarkprince. These guys work in vector format, so there tend to be fewer subtle details in their work. When compared to an elaborate PNG hairstyle, a SWF hairstyle might seem flat or cartoony. Flash has an unlimited canvas, so we wouldn't need to worry about cropping or squashing the hat (although fitting suggestions are still useful!). Unfortunately, Flash modding projects are fairly time-consuming, and our most prolific modder (dante) has retired to focus on parenting, so you may need to wait a long time before getting a response. You could try talking to @Sieg Warheit; he hasn't created any hairstyles yet but he's obviously skilled and he might be willing to undertake a hair project.

    Finally, you have people like @Samoth and myself. We work in Flash, but we lack artistic skill. We rely heavily on side-view reference images which have been drawn by other people. We're unable to simply arrange a few things onto a blank canvas and then guess at how the shading should look, or figure out how the fabric ought to be creased. Unless you can give us a very good idea of what the finished mod will look like, we probably won't be able to fulfill your request.

    Even within each of these categories, there's a lot of room for interpretation. It's possible to preserve the original details very carefully when creating an SDT mod, so that the SDT incarnation reflects the character faithfully. On the other hand, it's possible to soften or omit some details so that the SDT incarnation looks natural in SDT. Compare @sigmasurprise's rendition of Naoe Kanetsugu to @Mineur's version.

    Without knowing much about your priorities and preferences, we don't know what you'd consider "off the mark."

    An artist might create a beatiful rendition of the I-no hairstyle, but then simply crop off the hat when it meets the edge of the PNG canvas. Perhaps you'd consider this to be an unacceptable mutilation. Or perhaps you'd consider it an acceptable compromise. Someone might draw a great version of the hat, but then your immersion gets broken when you discover that semen strands fly through it during gameplay. Or maybe the semen thing wouldn't bother you at all.

    You can provide guidance and suggestions (or even an MSPaint mockup, as previously suggested) without infringing the artist's creative freedom. At best, your input will shape the mod into something that everyone is happy with. At worst, the artist will simply ignore your advice and do things their own way.
     
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  5. BossNova

    BossNova Potential Patron

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    This is fine. These are things that I would think are not known to non-artists so thanks for the info.

    Again, I am doing my best to provide what references I can but I know I'm going to have to explain things. I don't need to be constantly reminded that it's a waste of everyone's time to go off and do something just to find out it's not what I had in mind. This is why people ask questions and talk about things before starting on them.

    That mere statement implies you think I'm not. I've already given some information and preferences but if that's not good enough for you, then just ask me for more instead of admonishing me. You and I understand that you don't have to do any of this, so show some respect and I'll do the same. I will give you or anyone else what they need; you just have to ask.

    This is good information about the local artists and their differing talents. I recommend putting this either with your rules or in another sticky post on this subforum. You seem to like eliminating guesswork so this would be helpful for all to see.

    Again, that's why we talk about these things before starting them. I get you're trying to help and are speaking from experience when saying how things will go but to me, the way you present it comes off as abrasive. Again, maybe it's just the loss of context with text that's divorced from an audible voice, forcing me to color in your intentions with my own perceptions, so apologies if you don't mean to be rude.

    And for someone who talks about wasting time, you sure seem to have a lot of it when writing these things. I'm not even going through the trouble of underlining or coloring my text and still these last posts have taken me a not insignificant time to create (and to keep them civil). I can't fathom how long you spend on yours. Not saying that's a bad thing; you spend your time however you want.

    The time I spent means I'll have to get back to you on artistic feedback. You just sit tight.
     
  6. BossNova

    BossNova Potential Patron

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    I was about to post my feedback here but I noticed D-Oxygen responded to my original first post and sounds like they're pumped to work on it. Don't want to disappoint so I'll start throw the discussion back over there. D will be working with you anyway, so you'll hear more regardless.
     
  7. fleet

    fleet Club Regular Staff Member Moderator

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    Thread locked.
     
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