File Compilation Request (1 Viewer)

[pronspawn]

Hey guys, been lurking on and off since the konashion blog, but just recently registered.

I really like the recent download resource manager but was wondering (if we don't already) is there any way we can have a standardized aggregate of all the mods that we can just download and drop into the mods folder, so that we can just click the 'mods folder.jar' once to have them all updated?
With the previous archived imports, users have to load every aspect (hair.png/swf, costume.swf, code) for each character which gets really tedious. Apologies if I'm coming off too entitled as I know you guys put insane amounts of work into this, but would it be a good idea to move in that direction?

 

[stuntcock]

Hey guys, been lurking on and off since the konashion blog, but just recently registered.

Hello P pronspawn . Welcome to the Undetow forum.

is there any way we can have a standardized aggregate of all the mods that we can just download and drop into the mods folder, so that we can just click the 'mods folder.jar' once to have them all updated?

As a matter of policy: no.

It would take a lot of work to compile all of this material (many thousands of characters) and there's a lot of redundancy. For example: the Overwatch character Mercy has a costume mod, a custom dialogue, and two hairstyles. If we released an official SDT pack with a Mercy subfolder, then we'd need to choose one of those hairstyles as the official version. Each editorial decision could provoke drama and animosity. We could potentially rely on impersonal heuristics (most recent file, most popular file, etc) to avoid drama, but then we'd run into maintenance trouble. The pack would need to be revised whenever a new file gets released -- or periodically updated to reflect changes in popularity data.

Some long-running series include makeovers or costume redesigns; some characters have gone through different artistic incarnations. The official all-in-one SDT content pack would presumably need to include separate subfolders for Catwoman (Dark Knight) and Catwoman (Animated Series) and Catwoman (Arkham Asylum) and so on. The problem is that we would need fan knowledge in order to properly categorize all of the available stuff (e.g. "that charcode uses green eyes, so it's not applicable to the Ultimate Crisis version of Harley Quinn because that's actually her long-lost twin sister from a parallel dimension ...") The pack would need to be compiled by a whole team of people - in order to gather expertise on all of the included comics and anime and TV shows and etc. It would be a significant organizational challenge to recruit contributors, vet them, prevent overlap or re-work, detect and rollback vandalism, maintain submission standards, track overall progress, etc.

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I'm also generally opposed to the publication of content packs per se. I have no problem with accumulation of work and re-release for creative purposes. Dialogue packs (such as Slave Bazaar) are an obvious positive example -- they act as an excellent "keystone" for modding. They gather together a large collection of intercompatible mods and then weave them together within a cohesive story. The finished product is (usually) a user-friendly entry point into modding, because all of the pieces have been preconfigured to work properly. The user experience shows off the flexibility and scope of the modding system, while reducing interruptions and jank. Individual modding contributions are often uncredited and the authorship of the whole package becomes blurred, but that's a necessary consequence of the experience. It simply isn't feasible to show subtitles such as "this earring was created by Dante" whenever a costume change occurs.

The existing archive pack is very bad at crediting artists, but it has two important merits: it preserves older material (which might otherwise have become lost/unavailable) and some of its content was created anonymously (so the absence of author credit is moot). If we deliberately collect and re-distribute material which is currently available via the Resource Manager then the website would lose information (we'd see "pack has been downloaded 5000 times" instead of "hairstyle x has been downloaded 1000 times; hairstyle y has been downloaded 2000 times; etc") and creators would receive less feedback for their work.

It's also important to note that several prominent artists and modders have refused to have their content copied to the Resource system. They would presumably also refuse to permit their work to be included in an all-in-one mod compilation.

Hence, my answer is no because:

• a complete collection isn't a realistic goal
• a partial collection is of dubious value
• there are already packs available which provide a consolidated introductory package for newcomers
• the tagging system provides an alternate solution (e.g. "I want to download all of the <naruto> stuff"), although it admittedly lacks the one-button convenience of your suggestion
  
• I would prefer to see more interaction between creators and consumers; an all-in-one compilation pack would yield less

With the previous archived imports, users have to load every aspect (hair.png/swf, costume.swf, code) for each character which gets really tedious. Apologies if I'm coming off too entitled as I know you guys put insane amounts of work into this, but would it be a good idea to move in that direction?

Modders tend to actually play the game much less than normal people, and modders often employ tools or shortcuts to bypass some of the annoyances. It's always valid to say "this is inconvenient." In some cases a modder will be able to provide a quick solution; in some cases there won't be an easy solution but modders may strive to address that problem in their subsequent work.

It's also always valid to propose an alternative system. Please don't worry about being entitled. I think that this specific idea is unlikely to succeed, but I appreciate your enthusiasm. If you have any other suggestions for improvement then please feel free to share them. And if you'd like to get directly involved in SDT modding (or if you're willing to help copy files into the Resource system) then just let me know and I can send over some information.

 

[ZelaXaleRo]

Oi! I normally don't speak up myself, but something to add that may seem obvious to most but be completely lost to others...

The vast majority of creators here provide their products to us free of charge, in my experience the only ones requesting any payment are those who have been mentioned by other members for those making requests and/or looking for a mod do do what they desire. These type of mods I generally call *Magic Mods* as they generally are able to get results that even our most amazing creators are not willing or able to pursue. My suspect for these particular types is those who make them are actually programmers or ex-programmers for video game software publishers or got their hands on their tools through illicit means.

I got a bit off-track there, apologies! - As stated before, our creators here are gracious enough to share their works with us for simply our words of gratitude, taking the risks of potential account closure as more and more games are tacking on bloated security measures to prevent pirating. Finding the right method to stay below detection and produce quality results is an immense amount of work, furthermore not all modding types use the same methods, some methods even conflict for different types of mods.

Welp I feel I made my response run a bit, it all comes down to keeping the open environment for creators to showcase their work with as little hassle for them as possible while maintaining a certain level of anonymity as their works here are not always lawful.(depending on country) Needless 'Red tape' chases away creativity and potential especially in cases where there is no monetary compensation for their time, we consumers have to put in a tiny fraction of their time to find what we want, and that's still a raw deal for them!

 

[pronspawn]

Wow stuntcock thanks for the comprehensive response. It makes me really appreciate all the complexities involved at every step of the way.

As you mentioned in your other post, the old system/forum was really opaque for users. I say this from the perspective of a 'non-frequent' user (used to check the konashion blog every week, the old sdt forum every month, and the undertow forum every couple months). So while I probably hold the least amount of sway, I can share that every time I came back to this forum, it was just as daunting as ever, so I tried to sift through the newest mods and got out. I remember spending hours searching through every single thread, downloading mods one at a time, only to find alternate more polished versions, or obsolete filehosts, having issues with naming variants (ex. harley quinn arkham 1, harley quinn arkham 2 costume 2), etc. I'm not sure but maybe ease of accessibility would attract more users, or convince old lurkers to stay, which I think the resource manager has done for me.

On that note, while a file compilation of everything is unlikely and impractical (and this might open up a whole new can of worms), maybe it would be a good idea to aggregate 'polished' content in a direction towards accessibility. And so while there is the risk of upsetting/discouraging artists/modders, I think we can generally agree there are some variants that are objectively better than others.

 

[stuntcock]

I can share that every time I came back to this forum, it was just as daunting as ever, so I tried to sift through the newest mods and got out.

Yep, that's a reasonably common use-case. We don't expect everyone to instantly become invested in the website or in community-building. Some people are self-conscious about porn and don't want to talk about it, even under the cover of a pseudonym. Some people are simply busy. So if someone joins the Undertow website and wants to simply download the ten most popular mods, or a returning members wants to review any new files which have been published since his last visit, then it behooves us to accommodate him.

I'm not sure but maybe ease of accessibility would attract more users, or convince old lurkers to stay, which I think the resource manager has done for me.

That feature is pitched mainly at newcomers. The old lurkers don't benefit much from it, since the overwhelming majority of the uploads are archival (i.e. stuff that was published years ago and which they already had on their local drives). The one notable exception is the automated notification messages regarding updates. It was always a bit of a pain-in-the-ass to scroll through sby's thread (in alphabetical order) and check the version number on each of his mods. It's much simpler if I can just "watch" those mods and then get an email whenever an update becomes available.

maybe it would be a good idea to aggregate 'polished' content in a direction towards accessibility.

I'll listen to any suggestions that you can offer. I still think that aggregation projects such as the 666 girls pack would put us on the wrong path, but I'm open to compromises or counter-arguments.

I think we can generally agree there are some variants that are objectively better than others.

My particular specialty is dynamic hairstyles which rely on Loader scripting. I think that the animation of such mods is more detailed than a vanilla dynamic hairstyle. But if someone is struggling with low framerate then my mods might make their game unplayable. If someone is using an exotic animtools position (e.g. upside-down piledriver) then my hairstyle mods will look terrible. If someone is using the vanilla game instead of the Loader then my work is worthless to them.

Objective ranking is difficult. One costume mod might have professional shading while another offers breast-slider support. A beautiful PNG hairstyle might be considered an eyesore if it clashes with the flat colors of the accompanying background image. Most of the existing SDT content is vanilla-compatible ... so we'd need to decide early whether to include Loader stuff (and thereby introduce a lot of compatibility risks) or exclude it (and thereby reject a lot of objectively great stuff).

If we're planning to invest hundreds of hours into the organization of a comprehensive content pack, then we'd need to have good answers to these quandaries. It would be silly to dive into a project like this if we're going to trip at the first hurdle.